Also, car bomb exploded outside state department, white house evacuated on a good threat, and, I believe they are called the world trade towers, which are also in the heart of wall street… at least 50,000 people occupying the twin towers at any moment!

the apparent deathcount is 20,000+. This is horrendous.

5 planes were hijacked, 2 hit trade center, 1 hit pentagon, 1 crashed near pittsburg, 1 crashed, location unknown, senator mccain pushing to pass "declaration of war" in congress!

Peterson, Schriever AFB locked down, ThreatCON Delta SRS Personnel and other non-military evacuated Peterson non-military asked to stay, or if leaving, can’t be left back in

and on another note, making changes to a SQL stored procedure, however, boss feels a parameter shouldn’t be named "IsNested", because, even though that is understood computer logic meaning the sp is calling itself, he feels, it needs to be in terms, regular people can understand…. Listen assfuck, regular people don’t look at or write stored procedures in SQL… dumbfuck!

I really dont want to be in any public places right now…. A lengthy trip out into the wilderness sounds very appealing. Everyone, if you can, go out and donate blood… we’re gonna need it. -Tim

Memorial Hospital Blood Bank: 3655411 Current waiting time to donate blood: 3 hours Call to schedule an appointment, I did!

If you really want my opinon, as well as a little different way of seeing this whole affair you can check it out at my website. *edited by <b>rand0m</b> @ <b>09/11/01 – 1:17pm</b>

matt, after reading your opinion, i feel compelled to give you the opportunity to clarify of your last statements: "We who vampirically suckle at a nation from an ocean away. " What nation have we so abused, or taken advantage of, to justify this act of war against our sovereign soil?

um, you’ve watched the X files too much man. It makes sense in a wierd sort of way, and might be a great basis for a TV mini series, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true.

I will do the plugging on my site, thanks. Although your opinions are valid, I would encourage you distribute your thoughts through a different medium.

Randallll is my hero.

Sorry randy, you asked for what I thought. And I am going to have to take offense at the X-files comment, I think there is validity to the statement that can parallel the concept of trans-continental, large scale, well organized terrorism. Tony, what nation haven’t we abused? The whole Orient, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Palestine. They celebrate our wounds for a reason, not out of spite. You yourself pointed out the use of slave labor by Sony.

Furthermore, there is no justification for their actions or ours. That was not that point, I am not claiming that it was correct, I am saying that it was understandable. If you had to watch your family suffer and/or perish to fulfill the wants of us fat bastards in America wouldn’t you want the scales tipped to an even keel? And why ask for thoughts and then express a desire that they be "expressed through a different medium"? I hate it when people post right after themselves.

Clarification: The Car bombing has been proven false… but I heard the early reports about that. This day will live in infamy. We as a nation only attack another nations military and other structures that pose as dual use military facilities. We have not done anything to Russia because of that whole COLD WAR thing. The middle east has had conflict for ages, way before the US was even a nation. Thier plight is not just a new event related to our exsistance. The fact we backed a nation that we founded because of Germanies attrocities shows the level of commitment we are engaged in when discussing our investments. If you dont understand I am talking about the nation of Israel and our continued military support of Israel. Just because a nation feels persecuted by a higher economic standing country doesnt justify the incredible lack of humanity witnessed today. To look and understand the situation in NY as being justified by any means is simply a "noble savage" syndrome. My prayers go out to the victims of the WTC bombings and the hundreds of killed personnel in the Pentagon building. May they be in a better place than this crazy world. My hope is that America will finally show the resolve against terrorism that is neccessary to show that we have a spine and that we will not tolerate actions against this great nation. We should strike at the center of ALL terrorism abroad. We can not wait for an international court. The terrorist community has declared war against us and it is time for action. In the end the actions might not be completely legal in your eyes but it will be a proportional action that will allow me to feel safe at night. May the leadership take action now… sorry for the preaching but this has struck close to my soul. All those 18 and male be prepared to become part of a draft if we truly go to war. Head out to your local post office today to sign your draft card today, its your CIVIC duty as an American. IF your female and feel I am being sexist, you are not required but I feel you should go out and sign a voluntary card of enlistment as well. thank you… someone can have their soap box back 🙂

Yeah, this sucks. I can’t sleep. It’s 3:15 in the fucking morning. Screw this. I got to see the first footage of the first airplane crashing into building number one. Fuck this. The Boston Herald (www.bostonherald.com) has an article about the suspects they have so far in boston and a car they found with piloting instructions in some mid eastern language. yeah, fuck this. i’m supposed to fly to LA at 6:45 on thursday morning. It’s not fair that i’m fucking scared that my plane will be hijacked, or that i’m going to die while in my own fucking country. fuck that. in fact, why should i be scared to die anyway? is that fair? no. also, has anyone looked at how much the media is creating propaganda, or how much the congressmen and women singing god bless america is propaganda, yet for two hours no one feels bad for the people who had to sit on planes and feel themselves flung into buildings that they are all familiar with. it’s fucking bullshit. hopefully, people won’t get all psycho and start attacking muslims, that would suck. bin laden is a psycho, he’s fucking jesus, it’s like david koresh. people are stupid. fuck this. why didn’t the government know anything about this? i suppose i throw props to the terrorists for doing it so well. we aren’t as strong as we think. i guess we’re not as safe as we think. fuck that.

That post by Mr. Jean is probably the most frightening thing I’ve ever read. First off, and most importantly, unless you agree with the current foreign policy that America is prosecuting, I suggest you stay the hell away from the draft and take any deferment you can get. Civic duty does not consist of following one’s leaders; that is indentured servitude. Civic duty involves protection (in the case of the United States) of the freedoms which are the tenets of the state. If you believe (as I do) that entering a state of war with the so-called "community of terrorists" goes contrary to the protection of said freedoms (or has high potential to do so), then supporting a war by running off and hopping on the draft is simply a bad idea. Just because you in particular believe that protecting our state involves blowing shit up and ignoring the rest of the world, doesn’t mean that you’re right in thinking so. It may, but civic duty is for each person to decide for themselves; anyone who fails to do so is not worthy of being called a citizen. And now, a point by point analysis of the situation: First off, your reference to this day living in infamy is bad. We were not attacked on our soil by a foreign sovereign military power, we were the victim of some extraordinary domestic violence. The Columbine shootings, Timothy McVeigh’s bombing, all of these are essentially equal incidents, but on a lesser scale; does the scale of it make it infamous? that seems like a pretty weak reason. Second off, a cold war reference? pardon the acronym, but wtf? Third: Israel as a nation is an example not of American dedication, but of American foolishness and the classic clumsiness of a superpower. Because of the situation in Germany and America’s colossally slow response to such, America felt guilty. Because of this, they trampled the Palestinians who lived formerly in the state now called Israel to make way for the Jewish people. Then, they proceed to create a government which actively attempts to crush part of its citizenship (the Palestinians who remain in their homeland). Then, due to aforesaid guilt about fucking it up the first time the Jewish people were threatened as a race, America actively supports Israel militarily, basically sticking out its tongue at the whole middle east and ignoring the atrocities which the state of Israel is persecuting against part of its own population. This, obviously, pisses off most of the surrounding Arab countries with connections to the Palestinians. Thus, America sticks out its tongue at the whole Middle East, making them understandably irritated at us. It is not because America makes more dvd players/computers/ porn sites/ whatevers, but because we actively offended for years the Arab people as a race, that they felt a need to retaliate. While the acts today (yesterday now) seem unconscionable, the fact remains that for years we have supplied Israel with military support to kill off a portion of its own citizens; I can almost guarantee you that more than 50,000 Palestinian citizens have died over the years at the hands of American military equipment, but when someone does it to us, they are horrible, whereas we bear supporting by immediately hopping into the draft. Nuh-uh. My prayers as well go out to all the victims of these acts, and I wholeheartedly support any actions being taken to assist people (talking with people who lost friends or family, donating blood, prayer, whatever it is) during these extraordinarily shocking times. The most horrendous thing I have heard yet today: "the actions might not be completely legal in your eyes but it will be a proportional action that will allow me to feel safe at night". If this is a common sentiment among the American people, I am seriously considering leaving after college. And this is a far more serious statement than moving to canada when bush was elected; I honestly could not support a supposed democracy where people were willing to trade legality, freedoms, and the core of their fucking nation for a feeling of increased safety at night. This is the moderate stance that is strangling America right now. The purpose of the American government is not to defend its citizens from outside threats; its chief purpose is the protect the freedoms which are promised to us as a people by the documents that stand as the foundation of our state. If we decide to ignore the law here, then who’s to say that down the line we don’t hop outside the laws again? I don’t think you’ve even tried to comprehend the danger of the precedent you want to set here; regardless of whether you feel safe at night, or (sorry, Laura) while in transit, or even just working in a tall building, you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT ignore the law. That turns what is probably the most incredible form of government in the world into a fucking oligarchy; if the powers that be decide that the American suburban middle-class can’t feel safe with a free press running around, then why not just destroy the law again? Oh, right, no reason to, because our feeling warm and fuzzy is more important than BEING FUCKING FREE. Goddamn. As to the question of fairness: in exchange for the possibility that you’ll be hijacked by terrorists, or gunned down at school, or even just mugged while walking home, you are given so damn much; if you don’t feel it’s a fair trade, I am almost ashamed to call myself a citizen of the same country as all of you. In short (which this most certainly has not been), it’s time to take some responsibility for what we’ve been given. Basic civil rights, granted to you over 200 years ago. This does indeed mean that things like this can happen; 50,000 people may die because America doesn’t restrict air traffic tightly enough to prevent today’s occurences. But I, personally, will accept that things like this may happen (not rejoice in it, or even approve, but accept) in exchange for my citizenship in the democracy of the United States. Okay, now I need to go to sleep. Rant mode officially off. And, since I know this will be incendiary (it’s supposed to be; not to piss you off, but to make you think) and I don’t want Randal’s board to become clogged with "shut up, commie pig" or anything like that, please direct any flames to my address given above; intelligent discourse that bears reading by the whole crowd should be posted here for the aforesaid reason.

Damn Tore, one word:"Paraphrase" Did it ever occur to you people that are making all these assumptions about the attack that none of you have the training, information, or experience to make any conclusionsabout what has happened? That is why we have a entire class of professional that makes these decisions. They are called "politicians".

And one more thing, who the hell is this "Jean" loser, and why is he spouting patriotic crap at us?

We know this is Osama Bin Laden! We know where Osama Bin Laden lives! We were attacked by a terrorist organization hiding out in a FOREIGN COUNTRY! By my estimates, we have lost at least as many people as Pearl Harbor, which wasn’t even a US State at the time. This is not Vietnam! This is not Oklahoma City! This is America being attacked on it’s homeland by foreign terrorists. I want justice, swift justice, and truthfully, our NATION wants justice! PS: Our intelligence community has intercepted communications making it clear that it was Bin Laden.

Good morning. How is everyone doing? It was an act that occured domestically. The people who committed the act were allowed into our country by US. That makes them have the same legal right to be here as you, little one. That makes it (say it with me) an act of domestic terrorism. And this strike is a loss of lives almost 10 times what Pearl Harbor was (if the news knows what it is talking about.) I am not going to reiterate what my dear commie associate said, except to applaud it. I also have to add that we were involved in a cold war because we were striving to destroy an IDEA. That sounds a bit totalitarian to me. Think like us or "actions will be taken". So don’t tell me wwe did nothing to Russia. We stigmatized their beliefs in the great legacy of cocksucking McCarthy. oh, wait McCarthy was an elected official, a POLITICIAN, that was nothing more than a glorified witch hunter with full political sanctions so don’t tell me they are better qualified to make decisions about who lives, who dies, and who is punished for what.

Umm… yes, I will now jump on the leftist bandwagon yet again (can we get our names printed in different colors or something to show our inherent biases?). Why do we need politicians at all? The reason we have a free press is so that all of the citizens of America can be equally informed. If there is information which the politicians are withholding from us, we should be outraged, not complacent. And what is it in their "training" that allows them to analyze the situation more effectively than any of us? I admit that they may be more capable of determining who did it, and they are most certainly more effective at discovering the facts of the situation. But what is done about it (what most everyone here is posting about) is not a responsibility that should be so lightly shoved onto someone else. I am not willing to let politicians whom I believe to be simply bad citizens in power decide what course of action is right. And what assumptions, I ask, have been made about this attack? No one is saying "kill the arabs" or "kill the jews" or any other knee-jerk sort of statement here; even the statements which I disagree with so strongly seem to be well-defined opinions, and an opinion certainly is not something that I will define by the choice of a single official, and most certainly not one whom I don’t feel is even a competent citizen, much less a good politician. Secondly, I really don’t see how this is any different than the Oklahoma City bombings. Sure, it was perpetrated by people who are not citizens of the U.S., but how is that relevant? They are not the tools of a sovereign power, trying to conquer us all; they are a bunch of people who have spurned America, much like Timothy McVeigh, Harris & Klebold, and any other basic street criminal. The fact that they are foreigners is completely irrelevant, because when they entered the country, they gained certain basic rights; just as America can only do certain things to its citizens, it also binds itself as to what it can do to citizens of other countries. The essential difference here is that we need a police reaction, NOT a military one; this is not war, this is large-scale crime, perpetrated by citizens and NOT a sovereign foreign power. Anyone who thinks we should go bomb bin Laden might want to consider that the next step is bombing American citizens who perpetrate crimes; the right of due process and all other legal proceedings must be applied equally to all, even those who actively spurn the responsibility that comes with such freedom, or (as I stated earlier) we set a precedent that brings down the whole nation. And while the nation may want justice, I know that it doesn’t want vengeance, because I am part of this nation, have been a complete part of it for almost a year, and I am not going to march through the streets demanding that we bomb bin Laden. I am going to march through the streets demanding that above all, we remain true to justice.

Okay, Tore’s original post (which is 6.26KB of pure-text) has been restored and his follow-up has been deleted. Also, Ultra-Long comments are now possible — please don’t abuse it too often.

tore, did you know that osama bin laden considers it fair game to kill all u.s. citizens… why don’t you share your deep and heart felt sympathies for his "citizens" with mr. bin laden… let me know what he says? Also, tore, why is this not an act of war? You have proved nothing that constitutes this as a police action to undertake! If you are unfamiliar with what an act of war incurs, ask the japanese of okinawa and nagasaki?

<i>The essential difference here is that we need a police reaction, NOT a military one; this is not war, this is large-scale crime, perpetrated by citizens and NOT a sovereign foreign power.</i> Who said the people that did this were US citizens? If this turns out to be an internal conflict, I’m sure that ludicrous amounts of legislation will be passed outlawing extreme, fundamentalist groups from doing anything. If the people responsible are *not* US citizens, which is most surely the case, then the country that produced these miscreants will be held responsible for their punishment. The current policy is such that if the country that directly or indirectly supports these criminals does not give them up for international [NATO-based?] punishment, the country itself will be held liable and retaliated against accordingly. Sounds good to me. If it’s bin Laden based, or Iraqi based or whoever, and said group does not come up with the terrorist group, and the US knows they have them but aren’t being helpful, then bomb the fuck out of the safe harbor & and the terrorists until they are no more. $.02.

why does it say commenting unavailable at the bottom of the page?

I’m doing some heavy work on the site … including getting the logins to work, getting the poll up, databasing everything and dallying with getting it all on SQL instead of access.

Ok kids, lets talk foreign policy. Whether or not these individuals were actual citizens is totally irrelevant. They were still allowed into our country by the Unitede States. We deemed them, and the country they came from to be non-threatening enough to grant them Visas or tourism passes. Now, lets say these little boys are (as is claimed by so many) to be of Usama (or Osama? call CNN, they got his fucking name wrong) Bin-Laden then why are we allowing members of a country known for terrorism onto our soil? So look at that, stricter foreign policy, peaceful preventative legislation that could have possibly avoided this whole mess. THeir country bombs our cars, how about we stop letting them in? No, it isn’t a perfect solution, but as you typical hip shooting dipshits are prepared to do neither is engaging in a repetetive military action. We bomb them, they bomb us, eventually we kill them all…do you want an armband to go with your brownshirt? That won’t stop terrorism either. Now we are the mighty united states, murderer of thousands of innocent people to get to the few members of government and minority demographic of terrorists. Fuck, even I would start blowing shit up then because when that comes to pass, the government needs a serious ass Jenny Jones makeover. So how about we solve problems instead of getting indignant, violent, and causing more? We are the "greatest nation in the world" lets act like it instead of standing in front of Old Glory and requiring punishment. How about we set an example because god knows we have proven nothing historically except we are as degenerative as any middle eastern butcher. Oh, and tony, an act of war must be sanctioned and instigated by the government of a nation, individuals funded privately and acting with no knowledge by their respective country are committing diplomatic crimes at best, not acts of war. And Bin-Laden has had actions committed by U.S. citizens. He would be the first to agree that a live and let live policy is prefferable. (I know only what they print about him, as do you. So don’t pretend you know what his real policies are when you learned them from the villifying western press that misspells his name half the time and I won’t either.) And I would apologize for the length, but I get goosed stepped on when I try to just put a link for simplicity.

when Japan attacked the US, it was the military attacking pearl harbor, war birds… if you read the history, you will find that the government were puppets… guess who is commander in chief of the afghanistan government, the taleban? Osama Bin Laden. Hope I cleared that up for you burnzy

correction, osama bin laden is CINC of the afghanistan ‘military’

thanks to whoever did this, i have to drive to LA tonight…stupid bullshit.

Bin-Laden denied responsibilty, and do you know what a taliban is? It is similar to a congress. That makes them government who had no knowledge nor did they order the attack. So it is a private citizen’s actions. And a puppet government is still a government, hope you understand it now.

AFAIK, Bin Laden has no connection to the Taliban other than being a "guest" of the government. He is the leader of al Qaeda, an Islamic Fundamentalist group that has supposed connections all over the world.

right…and when most the world wants to kill you, you’re going to admit you killed thousands of innocent people… anyway, looks like bush is going to declare a war. fuck that. and, the afghanistan government just hides that fucker….yeah

I’m wondering why the only people defending democracy in this forum seem to be the two socialists. Bah. I’ve spoken my piece, and you are ignoring the greater part of it; go ahead, knee-jerk, be the big bad U.S.A., blow shit up, kill Muslim citizens, whatever. I am just washing my hands of the whole deal; anyone ready for next post?

To those that are not believing what I say: <A HREF="http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216037">http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216037</A> This is the news article which described russia’s reaction to bin ladin’s appointment as CINC of the military, over a month ago! President Bush is the CINC of our military, if that helps you to relate. !I will not explain this any simpler out of lack of respect to those ignorant of the facts! Here is the article outlining possible suspects. From Jane’s Digest: <A HREF="http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid010911_1_n.shtml">http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid010911_1_n.shtml</A> Osama Bin Ladin is the biggest suspect according to the WORLD’s best source of intelligence news. Again, if you ignore these facts, you are guilty of obvious distaste for the truth.

Is nice to be posting wherein it isn’t an argument. Just a point of order to Tore: I am not a socialist. I ain’t gonna waste your time with my political views, you didn’t know, so I be telling you. That is all.

tis okay, one day you will see the light. to point out one other thing: the fact that the president is the Commander in Chief of the American military is actually a peculiarity, as far as national governments go. While bin Laden may have gained control of the Afghan military, this doesn’t mean that all of the power that a President would hold has been granted along with it. They are clearly separate roles, and your disgustingly naive association of such reminds me more than anything of a propagandist. "Jewish people are successful in society, therefore we must kill them" and such. So, really, the more you post, the more you come across as an unreasoning ass and less as an intelligent and considering thinker. You would rather accept your shoddy analogy as conclusive evidence, instead of simply stating fact: bin Laden commands the military. This is a far cry from the statement "bin Laden commands the government". So please remove your head from your ass, stop making your "tony’s a stubborn stupid retard" face, and quit trying to convince us of assumptions while criticizing us for ignoring fact. Gah. New thread. Must move on to new thread.

Ok first off id have to say this is some of the worst stuff i have heard from any american! Ok maybe not the worst, but think about it! Like Jean said, its our civil duty! I mean, come on! Think about it! Its not our national duty but our civil duty! We(Jean and I) seem to be the only ones here that believe that! I would die for the ideas of america! The idea that I am free do live my life as I have envisioned it from childhood! The idea of my children doing the same! The idea that I can say and believe what I want! These are the things that make up america! This is what makes us each americans! Not where we live or what we do! But these ideas! And i would die for them! I would die because i know my own ideas are at stake! Second off, this is an infamous day, not only based on scale but on the fact that this event was not of domestic origin! This event was a cause of foreign confilcts, unlike the other bombings that occured here in America! And the point where ‘realbighead’ pointed out that the scale of the event is a weak reason, well thats bullshit man! I can go blow up a car and kill 2 people tomorrow in a town of 150 people…it is still an act of terrorism! so it is the same class as this but on a much smaller scale! So i say yes definitly! The scale of the event has everything to do with it! If they would have flown a nuke into the east coast somewhere as an act of terroism, hell yes there would be a bigger backlash from the united states! And i guarantee that we(Jean and I) would be there to support our nation! As for the rest of you, as realbighead has put it…it is up to you, as Americans…but as Americans, you would be there right behind us in line! To protect your way of life, to protect a country that has given everything to see that your ideas are not shot down and that you can be heard! Is it not worth it to you realbighead to sacrifice for this purpose? Do you not see this event as a threat to your rights? And once again Jean is struck back at for his belief and idea of striking back at the enemy no matter legality! He never said he would give up his freedom! That is his entire purpoe of fighting! When people can understand that, they will see that you cant put rules on war! you cant! how can you say "you can only wound soldiers"? how? Its impossible! The main goal is a ‘police power’ to investigate the ‘crime’…what the hell do you think they have been doing the last 2 days!? And as far as difference in foreign and domestic! This does not stop at one man! This is an act that has taken the ideas of several people or groups! Meaning serveral nations, only to be acted out by one man! So, you ask? War…I say yes! This is not regular terrorism! Terorists cheer and take responsibility of their acts of terrorism! But why do we see all middle-eastern countries give us a cold shoulder? Why do they see shelter when we come by? Why would an inocent man run? Tell me this! -directed to realbighead ‘Why do we need politicians at all? The reason we have a free press is so that all of the citizens of America can be equally informed. ‘ one little note….do you notice that they give the location of the president and the vise-president on tv, along with where they will be tomorrow? Why would they keep moving if people will still know where they will be at? Could this maybe be a reason for the hoarding of the information that the investigation has enfolded? pardon the rudness! Its late…

damb bt, you come off sounding like jean’s lapdog, sad… sad… on the other hand, maybe you should read the comments posted by me, which it doesn’t look like you did…

How is it our civic duty to break the law? by doing so, we aren’t defending America, we are defending ourselves. this is exactly what I argued against for 10k up there. Am I really that un-American because I place law and justice and the American government over myself? I’d think that’s the ideal damn viewpoint for a citizen of any nation. My responsibility as an American is not to protect American lives at the cost of legality. If we were invaded by a foreign power (let’s say Canada) or if we were attacked by ballistic weapons from Pakistan or anything of that sort, I would indeed feel a duty to support the American military in its response. But this was not the considered action of a foreign power; though many countries may have agreed with the purpose of the attacks (a point under contention; see next sentence), that doesn’t mean that they did it; they’re still the actions of a private citizen. Besides which, the Arabic nations of the world are all supporting us in this. There are exactly 3 countries which have official relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and they are all supporting us now; hell, the Taliban is considering extraditing bin Laden if America is able to provide evidence that these were his actions. Why is it our civil duty to support the military when Afghanistan is cooperating in the investigation of what is, in fact, a private citizen’s crime? Your comments come across like you haven’t really kept up on this, and are basing your opinions solely on the fact that a foreigner attacked Americans; that is only an act of war under certain circumstances, none of which exist in this case. The situation actually appears to settling down some from the flashpot of "bomb everyone" we had going earlier; the current course of events, given everyone else’s actions across the world, is a much more reasonable one by my standards, and it appears that citizens of all the countries involved in this are acting responsibly and according to their civic duty (excepting those citizens who prosecuted this attack, of course). This is the only response to terrorism that I consider to be successful; defending American lives at the cost of legality is not patriotism, it’s racism, isolationism, and all the other "ism"s that have launched war over the past 5000 years. As to the question of scale: Pearl Harbor was a "day that will live in infamy" because it was the first time that America was invaded by a foreign power. Not because it hurt the military more than ever before, or because a whole lot of ships blew up, but because we were invaded. Tuesday was not the first time a foreign citizen committed a crime on American soil; it was a particularly heinous crime, and just like everyone else, I regret its occurence, but the only thing distinguishing Tuesday is the severity of the attack; it’s not like it’s never happened before, just not quite so big. One last little flaw in your argument: you say that Jean is being a good citizen by fighting for his freedom (not attacking Jean, but he’s the stated example; consider it hypothetical); isn’t the idea of being a citizen to fight for freedom as a whole, not just for yourself? in some cases, I believe the two run contrary to each other; I believe that I am acting out my civil duty by defending the ideals of freedom, not making sure that I get some of it. And finally, directed to BlackTalon – How would knowing the president’s location assist us in understanding the situation right now? I don’t believe that all information needs to be dispersed to everyone, but anything that Congress as a whole knows should be known to the American people as a whole, since Congress more than anyone is supposed to represent the interests of the American people, and we can’t exactly have interests if we don’t know anything, can we? The important thing about the free press is what we see on cnn.com and such, which has at least 7 different story threads, all containing information important to the situation; I was not saying that "Americans know everything", but that we can get enough information to make a reasoned opinion for ourselves, something which many of you seem to not be doing. Grr. Arg.

To clarify some things that I have posted previously!: Jeans lapdog… Just because i support an idea doesnt mean i am a lapdog…poorly worded…there are only 2 ways to live in this country and you either lead or follow! But we always have the chance to lead…this time…my ideas have already been posted so i folloow..and support…so as of lapdog…seems like we are all lapdogs here…following someones idea..correct or not… and just to point out that…I dont have to power to judge correctness…but i do have the power to follow what i believe is correct…and thats what i am doing… and as far as realbighead… I do not disagree that we have an obligation tothis country… as a whoel…i merely tried to point out that it is out civil duty to keep these things from happening…and following the governement of the united states by signing up doesnt mean i want to go and blow something up…or kill innocent people…but just that I want to show the people of the world…that our country is worth dying for…and that I will stand up for our nation armed…ready to eliminate any who stand to refuse me my rights…legally or not…murder is murder even in self defense…I myself dont see how joining up today(draft) to back our country is a bad thing that is crazy and frightening! and just to explain further….we all make up america….america doesnt make us! So, if us americans decide to do this…without nato, we do it as americans together…and i feel that i am ready to support such action by other americans to see that we push our point that this event will never happen again…and as for all the countries supporting us…wouldnt you? Would you commit a crime so horrific then just turn yourself in knowing thast you will lose everything you have ever gained in your life? or would you turn and point fingers…thats the problem the US faces now…the investigation…the ‘police’! We will find who has done this…and it is not all caused by one man…there are others…even if we provoked them by supplying their enemy…we will find them and eliminatre terrorism from their nation! Thats the point i tried to get accross! And as for realbig heads comment as to why we need politicians and why isnt all information made available… my little comment from my last post was to show you that information can screw us in the end! My point was…why would they(president, vice) even worry about moving yo be safe from terroism when the news publishes exactly where they will be and when! This information is sensitive to the fact that…it puts them in harms way…just as the info you wish to know from the terrorism…we dont know because if we knew…the terrorist would know…when we found out where they were and the government announced publically that they have done so and that they plan on bombing them the next day…what would be the point? Why this this information even help the american people…from what we know now…we know enough…that there is an enemy and that our great nations tops are making sure they got the right guy…and I guarantee that they know exactly where everyone is! as far as information such as death counts, possible suspects, vague concepts should and are released to the public! one last note: you ask "am i really that un-american if i place…the american government over myself?" You just previously made the comment that you did not like the politicians? and that you did not even understand why we need the!? i think you will need to explain more…! As jean was saying…we sign up for the draft and we are ready to fight illegally if our nation sees fit…thats all…now…how is that not putting the government over ourselves? the law…we can deal with…when we cant avoid it no longer… once again…sorry for any pointing fingers…

I’ve explained 50 times or so why I think that enlisting just because we are Americans is a bad idea, and been ignored every time, so I’ll just make a few more points and be done. Especially since your fucking ellipses made your post damn near illegible; please think of a better stylistic convention to take advantage of, to spare all of us the headache. Government != politicians. I don’t support politicians; I may arrive at similar conclusions with some and thus agree, but I support what I think is right; that’s what a government of the people is about, making politicians do what WE think should be done. Not the other way around, which is a definite feeling I get from some of the posts here. I support the American system of government; democracy, guaranteed freedoms for citizens, law, etc., not necessarily the particular government (current Congressmen, the cabinet, things like that). Point being: I dislike politicians because lazy people tend to base their opinions on what a politician says, when the system is designed to work in the opposite direction; citizens should consider the actions they want taken, and the politicians should then support those; it is not a contest of influence, but a simple representative system. That’s why I would say that I support American government, but not the particular government at the time (the ideals, not the people enacting them, basically). And now, I will be supremely detrimental to my health (physical and mental) by responding to your other points as well. Why are you so ready to go to war simply because your nation sees fit? Do you see fit to go to war as a nation? If you simply stated "I think we should respond with war, therefore I will go to war", I would be far more satisfied; the tendency to say "the nation wants to go to war, therefore I will go to war" seems to suggest that you are standing with the American people not because you support the ideals that should hold us all together, but because of a group mentality such as " if we shoot enough of them thar a-rabs, no one will fuck with us". As I stated above, I would support the American nation if I agreed with the actions of it, if I believed that said actions were supporting the ideals which I think are the important part of being American. I think most of us could agree with that. However, simply because my nation goes to war, does not mean that it should; I think that is the point that we must consider. If you simply respond with "I think America should go to war. I am going to go to war with America because I think it is right.", I will be completely satisfied. I would disagree that we should go to war, but I would at least respect you for supporting what you think is right, not just supporting what everyone else is doing. Next, the issue of other nations: it seems that you think everyone else is just outright afraid of us, and that is why they decide to support us. Why do you regard the rest of the damn world in such a belittling fashion? Perhaps some nations just *don’t* condone the actions done. Not because of fear, or hatred of Afghanistan, or love of America even; they simply think the action is wrong. That kind of idea doesn’t seem to occur to any of you. Here’s a concept: the world doesn’t revolve around America. If your head hasn’t exploded at the introduction of a new thought (god I’m a dick at 4 in the morning), you might consider the light this casts on the whole situation. Your use of ellipses makes your idea mostly incomprehensible; I think the point I’m trying to make, though (listen up if you’ve been dozing off, all of you) is that due to the American and foreign responses to this action, we don’t *need* a war. Is it not scary enough that every nation in the world condemns these actions and is assisting in the capture of those responsible? The American justice system has this kind of precedent; if I were considering killing someone in the middle of the cafeteria, my fear would not be that my dorm building would get bombed into oblivion in an attempt to get me, but that everyone on campus would turn against me and I would not be able to escape justice. Thus, while staying within the law, my crime (since I am not a sovereign power/dorm, but a private citizen) is punished adequately. For some reason, no one else here sees this as an adequate response; with the official support of nearly every nation in the world, how can we fail to catch these criminals? And, if we can’t prove the perpetrators, how could we with good conscience have gone to war with anyone? We know the PLO has been responsible for several terrorist attacks over the years; Yassir Arafat, nonetheless, publicly condemned the Tuesday attacks and donated blood to the American relief effort. Would we still attack Palestine because we knew that they once harbored terrorism, just so that we could say that it [terrorism] had been wiped out? Or rather, are we attacking possibly because Americans were attacked, and we must show that you cannot attack Americans? Cuz that’s not a nation, that’s a gang. This is where I see Mr.’s Jean and BlackTalon placing themselves above their country; they choose to fight to defend the American people, whereas I have chosen to defend the American nation (which is not composed of the people, but of the ideals which make us a damn people). Your (BlackTalon’s) statement that we are the nation is faulty; the nation is the system by which we, the citizens of the nation, lead our lives. A group of people who all just don’t want to be fucked with is not a nation; a nation is an ideal which a group of people have chosen to follow because they believe in it, and they will fight not to defend themselves, but to defend the ideal. Feudalism and tribalism were based upon group survival; I was under the impression that democracy was an advancement as far as governments go. (I’d cite the Civ II tech tree, but that’s really irrelevant). And your point about information: Information such as the location of the president or the identity of the perpetrator is almost irrelevant to being able to analyze a situation. I can just use conditionals: if the act was perpetrated by a private citizen, war would be wrong (to me, at least); if it was perpetrated by a sovereign power, then I would condone war and support it. I’ve said that quite a few times as well. Everyone knows what went on: Some entity attacked several American citizens. Given that much, what can we decide as to what we should do? Quite a lot. I seriously doubt, even given my loathing of this administration, that the President Etc. would send America to war without telling us who committed the act. Basically, you’ve now spouted the same irrelevant argument twice; I think the reason for this is coming up in the next few lines. New scariest sentence ever: "and just to point out that…I dont have to power to judge correctness…but i do have the power to follow what i believe is correct…and thats what i am doing…". Wow. This doesn’t horrify me in even the same fashion as the last statement; that one at least seemed like a judgement call. This simply states "I cannot decide what should be done, so I will simply do what others are doing". Guh. That’s not a democracy, that’s a herd. Get some free will, or go see the Wizard and get a brain, or something; that’s just a sickening thing to have to admit. Bah.

Ok firts of, this is a debate so we do listen to what you say, just as you are listening to me now. But that does not mean we have to agree with it. If i did, wouldnt i be following that ‘herd’ you were talking about! Second, I believe that every sentence I write can be picked apart and analized any way you see fit. But, to follow up further, Ill take a famous quote by a president,"ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country!" Now, is that so wrong, so non-democratic? hell, look who said it! Thats all we are doing! We are supporting the same contry that has given us everything we have today, and in a way it is supporting ourselves! We make this country, not the other way around! Well at least till that take our guns away! Next id like to say, I dont think that all counties support us, speacially the middle east, just because they think it is wrong! The same thing happens to them every month? Just of less magnitude! There is some other motive behind it! Wether it is just fear guilt or whatever, it is there! And no, just because they support us doesnt mean they are guilty! That is not my point! My point is simply that I am not following a herd, but following what I believe! Just because someone before me posted it and i supported doesnt make me a lapdog. It makes me someone that knows what they believe! Thats all! I am sure theere are many people out there with your beliefs and if they posted here before you, i am sure you woudl agree and support them! I am not stating that we should go to war because I do not have all the facts and i can not justly determine that! But, if our country sees fit, not just government, 90% of the people(our country) then I will go! Why do i need to wait for the? Well, I feel that I am ready to go to war over something of this magnitude, I just dont want to be in a one man army where i am ridiculed when i get back from fighting! I do not wantto see another vietnam in this nation! Thats my point! Last point, I hope my lack of eclipses are sufficient to please you! I am sorry, just a habit when i write emails and so forth! I do not read back over these either, so i am sure there are spelling mistakes too! As far as my own beliefs, I believe this country is like my mother! And i will not stand by to watch her attacked and eventually killed by these nats! If i have to go out with a can of bug spray and kill every nat in the world, then so be it! I will not stand by to watch my mother killed! So to speak! I see your points, I analized them, and they differ not too much from my own. Its the small things that are being picked apart here! We both agree that we support the country, we both agree that this country is made up of people like me and you, and we both agree to follow our own beliefs! Thats america! As long as we both agree that this nation is the reason why we can do the things we can do, then nothing else matters! We would both protect it, when we are most needed! Thats the last post I will make on this subject, I believe arguing over the small points will only make this debate get worse! And I cant see doing that..so if anyone has anything else to add I’d be glad to hear it!

Jeans lapdog eh Tony… well lets just say… bite me… I dont need lapdogs… If talon is one so are you with the way you spout off around here… Government = politicians. I am guessing you don’t vote, otherwise you would know that the Government = People it represents. If you dont like who represents you that is your own fault for not voting in people that do represent you. If you dont support or trust them then elect people that you can trust or RUN YOURSELF, god knows we could use someone other than the fanatics running this town now. If you organize at least 20K votes you can pretty much win any local election. When I said that someone should go out and make sure they are registered for the draft, it was a call to patriotism to show your government that you are not going to abandon this country when it would need you most. If you are, plz move to Canada now so that we dont have to waste resources hunting you down and putting you in jail. I will say that you have a point that it is sad when a society is sad when it does what another person tells them, HOWEVER, when kids rob liqour stores or kill other kids because TV told them to, why not use the TV to call them to some civic duty as well. Is using an influence of media so bad? If you disagree with me thats fine I dont care. I see a means to an ends that I want to happen. If some sap is dumb enough not to think for himself then let him serve his country instead of killing his fellow citizens because some freaking TV told him to. "As I stated above, I would support the American nation if I agreed with the actions of it, if I believed that said actions were supporting the ideals which I think are the important part of being American." Funny though that when it comes to government that you would support that you dont even believe in to begin with so that WHOLE paragraph is pretty much MUTE. "Here’s a concept: the world doesn’t revolve around America." Where have you been all your life? I mean the world DOES revolve around america. Examples: 1) American Stock exchange falls the world stocks fall… they rise it rises. 2) What Countries Music sells the most records world wide? American 3) What Countries Products sell world wide ? American 4) Why is the world in mourning when this happens and not in Israel or Great Britain or France or Japan (all with major tragedies in the past year)? Because its America 5) Who holds the Worlds Gold? America Ok enough but all these are examples of how the world DOES REVOLVE around America, and its just altruistic to think otherwise. This may not be the best thing for the world (US being the world leaders) however it is a reality that you should wake up to some day. The reference to the cold war was in reference (yes let me introduce…. myself) to the comment made "Tony, what nation haven’t we abused? The whole Orient, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Palestine. They celebrate our wounds for a reason, not out of spite. You yourself pointed out the use of slave labor by Sony." so wtf back at you?

In Reference to "Because of the situation in Germany and America’s colossally slow response to such, America felt guilty." OMG pick up a text book. Seriously. Learn something about WW2 and dont follow another hitler. We were slow because people like you were in the majority saying the US shouldnt get involved with other peoples problems. We created Israel because there was no home for them to go to…. out of guilt… sheesh now I have read everything… We support the military in Israel because they are the ONLY ally that we know we can count on in the region… again… guilt *sheesh*… pick up any text book about the creation of the state of Israel… want titles, I can give them to you. And 50,000 at the hands of American Military equipment eh? Again I dont know where you get these views but you again are so obviously wrong. We dont sell equipment of offensive nature to Israel. Countries such as France and West Germany did, but never the US. WE only supported with military training and funding. Israel’s government also doesn’t support terrorism against the Palestinines. They have always condemed it. It has been average citizens that have attacked Palestinines either in revenge or otherwise. I don’t know why I am arguing with someone that has obviously NO ACCURATE CLUE on whats going on in this region of the world. If you have been there you would understand. If you read up on what you spout out about you would know whats going on. I am MAJORING in college and have written MANY Papers about this part of the world. Want to go at it …. Bring it on I have FACTS, not rhetoric to back my claims. "the actions might not be completely legal in your eyes but it will be a proportional action that will allow me to feel safe at night" As I am glad you didnt think this through I shall *sigh* communicate reality of what I was saying about this. I was saying if I were the president I would have NO QUALMS about revoking the executive order on assassination attempts on individuals. Before you go balistic, let me explain. If as a nation we find proof that Bin Laden is guilty of coordinating these attacks he represents a threat to National Security that I would be comfortable authorizing my president and leaders in Congress in Killing immediately. I personally dont want to die in a Plane accident that he continues to plan as shown by the attempts during the week. Do you? Ok thanks…. soap box back… sorry had to answer the comments against reason. jean

Many of you are speaking your opinions and some I do agree with and some I do not. That is the beauty of the American government; everyone has a right to his or her own opnion. The American government is an elected group of officials that are chosen to represent the people. Now in this process of elections and voting the American people are declaring with their vote that I chose this offical because he or she represent my ideology. With politicians the voters are the constituants. America has not declared war yet…! I think that is something everyone is neglecting. Everyone currently assumes that America in its divine entity will nuke and bomb the crap out of bin laden and Afganistan. The current sentiment among military advisors to the president is a ground war. If it comes to war hypothetically. bigred you keep saying how America should not go to war out of spite and i do agree with you there. Revenge is not a worthy motive for a country to use when the entire world looks at that country as a beacon of democracy. however, when the stability and safety of the United States is threatened( you play it off as a crime but it is more heinous that a crime, bin laden wants to totally annihilate the U.S. and restore the caliphate which is a golden age when the entire world follows muslim) it is up to that country to respond accordingly. It is the civic duty of every american to let their political representative know exactly what he or she is feeling. It may be war it may be a polica action. However, it is decided by the people. Americans and the rest of humanity has a right to be safe, pursue happiness, and have freedom. A police action would only send these perpetraitors into deeper hiding or cause them to lash out all over the world. When the United Nations was created it was decided to be a government created to acknowledge soverieng countries and end war and create peace. However, terrorists do not have any regard for life or peace. They would use a destructive instrument such as bombings, loss of innocent life, and murder to achieve their goals. Read the preamble to the constitution. In it the continental congress declares…"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Especially pay attention to everything after insure domestic tranquility. It is the duty of the American government to keep the peace. And when necessary the United states can declare war in order to keep the peace. It states it directly in the constitution…"The Congress shall have power to declare war," and although it has not reached that action yet it has the responsibility to declare war if its citizens feel threatened and if they feel that their safety is not guarded by the military. civic dut does not mean go out and join your country in a war. you misunderstand that statement in my opnion. civic duty means that every citizens should be actively involved in their communitites, government, politics, and military. I strongly feel that every man and woman should serve their country in some capacity other than voting. it may be military service, volunteering at voting polls, running for local office, beginning actively involved in a neighborhood watch program, or voicing concerns to your elected representatives. that is civic duty. you interpret mob mentality of hey lets go to war when America declres war on bin laden is ignorance and misplaced. I know the military. there are soldiers overseas, on the seas, and in different countries just so that you can sit in front of your computer and verbally call people incompetent that do not agree with your ideology. then you become detrimental to your own cause. Those men and women out there standing on the front line of freedom are there to protect your freedom. They are in jungles in swamps and away from their families because they feel it is their duty not civic duty to defend their country, homes, and government. So if war is necessary to defend a home, government, and families then it is warranted. binladen conspired and attacked the family and friends in the wtc he also attacked the american government, and attacked the sovereign state of America. If all of those are attacked then it is a public affirmation on the part of bin laden that he wishes to declare war on The United States. World public opnion states that this is an attrocity. To prove my point go to the website i have posted here. It is a resolution passed by the United Nations a world governing body and read affirmative clause four. It allows a country to bring a "criminal" as you call it to justice through domestic legislation. Read the proposed resolution by sri lanka and through to article six. I hope that you will be unbiased and read those. We have tried peaceful means of apprehending bin laden. We accused him and he does not come for and answer the accusations. What difference would it make between a police actions and war. Either war it will be sanctioned by a world governing body and bin laden will flee again to some other country that will harbor him. The U.S. military does not want to make Afganistan glow for the next three centuries. They want to apprehend Bin laden, hold a trial and if he is guilty of the horrendous things accused then accept responsibility and suffer the consequent penalties. And i assure you with a police action Bin Laden will run. Or he might stay and and launch chemical or radioactive weapons upon soldiers. What then he will kill thousands of soldiers and is not then an act of war. What difference is established by you that you do not understand that there is no thin line separating war and terrorism. Also the incidence that you claim about the oklahoma city bombing, and columbine. Yes the U.S. has declared war on those. However, in mass media they are more fervently named as "war on violence" and "war on terrorism." Yes we have declared war on terrorism for three decades now however, now the war on terrorism has a poster child; osma bin laden. War will be declared and Osama will be brought to justice. If the draft is called up I will enlist. I feel it is my duty to serve my country in that capacity. I do not feel it is my civic duty just my duty. I will not live in fear of getting on an airplane. I will not have my children live in fear of going to school and worrying about dying. I will not stand for an American government that will stand idly by and watch it’s citizens get killed by a maniac because some red headed bimbo has a misconception of freedom, bill of rights, and the American government. How old were you by the way when the Civil Rights movement started? (disclaimer-not intended to offend anyone) yeah that’s right you do not know anything about oppression and terror. No one has ever attacked America out right and now that Bin laden has the balls to do so you only have a fractional taste of what kind of fear I live with everyday. Being a minority in this country you can’t evern imagine how much racism and discrimination I suffer. I was taught to hate the japanese race because of what they did to my country and my father was a teen ager when the civil rights movement began. You have no comprehension as to what oppression means. So if I have to give my life to stop anyone from attempting to oppress me and stop my happiness then I say Envoke War! Another thing an American citizen is smart, but the American masses are dumb that is why sometimes governments with hold information. Take for example the gas spikes. Yeah everyone has this mentality oh we got bombed it’s the end of the world go out and buy gas? if it were the end of the world I would go and find family and friends. not go buy gas. it is this sudden panic why the gas prices went up. Some uneducated American decided to jump to conclusions and caused illegal business opertations to occur. And you contradicted your self as well in an earlier posting about the government not sharing information…I think it was a response to black talon. I do agree with most of what Jean has to say. I say war! To preserve peace and elimante terror.